Rooted At West Oak.
Rooted At West Oak is podcast for salon owners, hairstylists and beauty lovers. We discuss topics like salon ownership, how to build your beauty business, beauty industry hot takes and so much more!
Rooted At West Oak.
Meet Jason Montana: The curly hair specialist.
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Hi everyone on the season finale of rooted at west oak podcast Im chatting with the one and only Jason Montana. Jason is not only my partner in life but also one of the most talented natural curly hair stylists I know.
West Oak Salon is so very lucky to have him in house and I can't wait for you all to hear and understand his purpose.
Thank you so much for being here!
Keep up with Daniel and West Oak Salon.
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You are listening to Rooted at West Oak, a podcast for stylists, salon owners, and beauty lovers, from hair color and extensions to business growth and real salon life. This is where it all starts. Hi you guys, welcome to the season finale of the Rooted at West Oak Podcast, season one. I cannot believe that we have made it through 10 episodes of the Rooted at West Oak podcast. It has been such a roller coaster, honestly, like figuring out all the editing, figuring out the setup, figuring out, you know, people to be on it. But here we are, the last episode, and I can't think of a better person to have on the last episode than Montana Styles, Jason Baker. You guys know him as my man, but also his clients know him as Montana, and the stylist at West Oak Salon now have him as a coworker, and I'm so excited to have him on the podcast.
SPEAKER_01I would consider myself a curly hair specialist. I work on naturally curly hair and work with people who wear their hair in its naturally curly state. And I have a bigger focus on teaching people how to work with their curls and how to style their hair. And I also have a little bit of focus in curly hair extensions as well.
SPEAKER_00What made you originally interested in focusing on curly hair?
SPEAKER_01One of the reasons why I wanted to start working with curly hair is because I felt like there wasn't any representation when I was in beauty school on how to work with curly hair, how to style curly hair. It was one of those things where I would have a curly hair client come in and I could not let them leave the way that they came in because I couldn't even do what they were doing at home. Because we didn't have education when I was in school to be able to style someone like that or send them out of the door the way that they've taught themselves over the past like five years on how to style their own hair. And because of that, it made me want to learn how to do curly hair.
SPEAKER_00Moving forward after beauty school, you're now in the industry and you are working behind the chair. Have you noticed that there was a desire for curly hair specialty?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I feel like a lot of my clients, I feel like for a lot of my clients, I'm the first person that they get to come to the salon, I do their hair, style their hair, and they get to go home and not have to rewash and restyle their hair for the first time in their lives. Oh, really? Yes. I feel like a lot of my clients, no matter what age, um, demographic, ethnicity, no matter where they're coming from, I feel like most of my clients, if they have ever tried to leave a salon and they're wearing their natural curls, they usually have to go home and redo their hair because there's not they haven't had found a stylist to be able to do their hair where they feel comfortable leaving.
SPEAKER_00Interesting. So what you're saying is is like when you're experienced through beauty school and you're experienced now seven years behind the chair, there's not really been a wide range of stylists who are capable of doing the services that curly hair textured clients need. And so you're trying to come out here and you know, wedge your way through and be an avenue for clients to be able to have a resource to go to for hairstyling. Yeah. Why is it so important that we have specialists who know how to work with curly hair textures? And maybe I shouldn't even say specialist, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I was gonna say you don't even have to be a specialist. I think that people just need to have the will to want to be able to do everyone's hair that walks in the salon. Because I feel like there's a lot of people in this industry who they're not even taking the extra 15 minutes to think about like why we would style someone a little bit differently, why would we diffuse very gently and not roughly? Why would we not utilize a hooded dryer? Something as simple as like putting your client under a hooded dryer to air dry, I feel like is like never thought about. And I feel like there's so much information out there, but I just feel like people aren't taking the time because I don't think they want to possibly troubleshoot it.
SPEAKER_00I I see what you're saying. I I see that, you know, through social media at least, and through my own experience in the beauty industry, it has always seemed a little bit odd to me that we are, for whatever reason, uh in the industry really focusing on smoothing everything out and creating sleekness and almost branding everything in those ways and not necessarily taking the time to actually understand wave, understand curl, understand coils. When in reality, personally, as somebody who has naturally straight hair, I never have really thought about, you know, it would necessarily be more difficult to learn these hair textures. I feel like there has to just be a slight learning curve, and instead of working with straight hair, now we're just working on curly hair.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's one of those things where I feel like once you even just watch someone do it, you can pick up on it very quickly on how to accomplish pretty simplistic styling on curly hair. I just think that you have to want the little bit of education it takes. Yeah. You don't have to do a huge like training program or take 20 different classes. A lot of my clients that I'm u that I'm doing, I use very similar similar styling techniques, whether you're wavy all the way up to pretty pretty co curly, almost leaning towards coily. I'm doing a very similar thing on all of these clients' hair, but there's just little tips and tricks that I have for like all the varying textures and curl patterns, but it's fairly standard across the board, but I just feel like people maybe they're scared or it's they don't know how to ask their client if they're open to trying something new with styling or wearing their natural texture.
SPEAKER_00Well, I'll say, you know, even like from my experience with what you've taught me, I feel like um, even and you know, this is me being honest here, you know, I had a very minimum understanding and education on how to style curly or wavy or coily hair. I had an idea, roughly, but very quickly I feel like you were able to kind of give me a few tips and tricks here and there on how to be a little bit more polished and a little bit more detailed with working with natural curls. And so my question to you is I would say, is why do you think that so many stylists and so many salons maybe shy away from offering these natural services or these natural curly services?
SPEAKER_01I think it's probably because one, the salon doesn't have a clientele.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01Or the salon is not they don't feel like they have enough education. I feel like a lot of times salons or stylists almost feel like they have to have a specialization in something. Like you can't just know how to do curly hair. I feel like it's almost like I'm not gonna offer curly hair because there is a curly hair specialist out there. Gotcha. I'm not gonna tr attempt to do this because there's another person out there that can do it. Yeah. And it's not a it's not a chemical service that I would say. I feel like some chemical services you probably should be seeking out someone who's very skilled in that that process. Whereas we're just we're talking about putting cream in someone's hair, we're talking about putting gel in someone's hair, we're not talking about a very aggressive chemical process. Yeah. Um, and I think people are scared to try putting a cream or gel in someone's hair. Um, but yeah, I think it's just lack of education all around, starting in beauty school.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would say, you know, as somebody who's worked through the industry over the last decade or so, and as somebody who also teaches and educates myself, I do feel like naturally when I'm teaching, there are certain concepts that people just naturally don't understand as well because there isn't as much at much access to the knowledge, if that makes sense. Yeah. Um, is there something that you would maybe say is a driving force for there not being education out there, or is it kind of just for whatever reason it's just not out there?
SPEAKER_01I think it's just well, I think historically there's a lot of like layers and components to us not teaching students how to style naturally curly hair or styling hair in its natural state. Um I think for a long time it was viewed as like not appropriate to be wearing. I think a lot of times with styling we did a lot of maybe curl manipulation for a while. Um, but we were not like letting someone's hair just air dry. We are not letting someone's hair just sit under a hooded dryer because for years we're emulating curls. We're emulating tight or we're creating tight curls, we're using a quarter-inch curling iron on people who have curls that are the same size as a quarter inch curling iron, because we can't style that curl, or we can't enhance that curl to look like this perfect curling iron curl. Because people haven't been able to wear their natural hair, they've always been told that they need to put heat on their hair or curl their hair or smooth their hair even just to exist in public. I think that is like the start. Like we're starting from that rather than constant heat styling to trying to transition to someone like getting their hair wet and walking outside with their hair wet to air dry. That's a big transition. Uh going from like a hot tool to walking outside with your hair wet and that being a final product, waiting for it to dry. And so I think that is one of the reasons why it's taken a long time for us to get to a point where people picking up on the curly hair styling.
SPEAKER_00No, I understand that. Uh I uh would you say that beauty industry in general, talking like from the very beginning in beauty school, we need to start having these beauty schools teach a lot more with the curly and coils?
SPEAKER_01I think that beauty schools need to just create a foundation. Right. Something as simple as like there's not a foundation on like even how to diffuse someone's hair. Right. I don't think there's a foundation on how to dry someone's hair without using a round brush or paddle brush or a tool to dry someone's hair, utilizing a hooded dryer to mimic air drying. There's a lot of like foundational things that I don't think that are taught in the schools that I think would be very beneficial when it comes to styling curly hair. Yeah, sounds like it. Yeah. You hear that Beauty Schools? Even just like a putting in like a gel or a cream, like there's so many different ways to utilize a styling cream, and there's so many different ways to utilize a styling gel, and there's no right or wrong way to utilize it, but I feel like people can't even dry curly hair. And we have to be able to showcase like how to dry curly hair with no product in it.
SPEAKER_00Well, I would say, you know, not trying to get away from the curly hair textures, but maybe just more so talking about beauty school in general. I do feel like the beauty schools are extremely fast-paced to move on from really every technique and every skill that they teach. So maybe create they need to start creating an opportunity for there to be a little bit more of a space to be slowing down and actually talking about okay, this week we're gonna learn how to dry the hair, we're gonna learn how to smooth it out really smooth with a blow dryer, what products to use to create it smooth with the blow dryer. We're gonna teach how to diffuse things quickly, we're gonna teach how to diffuse things fast, and what products to use as well. Like that would maybe be kind of like the blowout section versus just we're gonna put this heat protection in and blow it out smooth, moving on.
SPEAKER_01I yeah, I don't think in the beauty school they're not gonna I feel like it's very difficult for them to try to even get like balanced education out there to people. I think uh in like a trade school um that you can do in high school, like how we have them here where you're in school for two years um or two uh high school school years, you're doing cause a cosmetology program. I think you are a little bit slower paced in a setting like that. But then if you go to a branded school, it is so fast paced and rapid. And it also changes based on who your instructors are too, because uh we had our instructors who worked in different types of salons teaching us our different types of classes. Yeah. So like our thermal styling class was amazing because we had someone who worked um in a salon that was just doing like blowouts and silk presses and thermal styles all day. So when we got to learn how to do like a true Marcel curl, demo a um Marcel curl using Marcel um oven heated Marcel tools using a Denman brush, the way the Denman brush was intended to be used with the blowout, how to straighten coarse hair with a paddle brush to start. Next instructor that's teaching a class worked at the blowout bar and she's teaching us a great blowout bar skill. But then the next graduating class might not have those instructors because those instructors are the schools need to start seeing a little bit more consistency. There is no consistency anywhere. Because if you go outside the city, you're not you're not getting even a diverse education. Well, right.
SPEAKER_00Well, and that's such a shame because I feel like you know, every single client deserves, no matter what their hair type, texture, length, you know, color is they deserve to have a really high quality experience.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think at least the foundation. Absolutely. Like I feel like a lot of the girls I went to school with, and myself included, at least have a foundation because I was in the class that they sat in.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01If they paid attention in that class, you should have at least a foundation of how to m work with someone with curly hair or not be scared to work with someone with curly hair because I saw the education we have the same education. Yes, I'm advanced in different areas of my textured hair education, but we both took that same blowout class, we both took that same like um thermal styling class. So you should have a foundation where you feel a little bit more comfortable with that, but I can't say the uh the beauty school that is in a different county, right, that's not downtown Columbus, right, is gonna have the same thermal styling class.
SPEAKER_00You know, I you know, you've always heard me talk about how I do feel like there needs to be a lot more like mandated regulation with the beauty schools.
SPEAKER_01I have a standard for how they want every single salon to operate, but they don't have a standard for how every single salon should be doing services, should be doing services, or how every single school should be teaching in education. Because every single school's highlighting class is gonna be different just because the instructor's different.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. We're gonna kinda trail off here a little bit, but I'm curious, uh, you know, throughout your time in the industry and you know, throughout uh all the conversations that you've had with your clients through the years, is there any insight that you've got from clients kind of defining for you how valued and how seen they feel because you do know how to do their hair?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think a lot of my clients have, like, I would say every single person in the world probably has a had a horror story. Oh, of course. Everyone's had a bad haircut. Yep. But you've been able to get your hair cut and then still get your hair styled and then brush your hair properly, and then you leave, and like you have a probably bang and blowout, but you might not like the layers you got. Yeah. My clients, a lot of my clients, they're walking through the door terrified because they don't even know if you're gonna be able to give them a trim, yeah, not change their haircut, not change their shape. It and half of my clients will walk in, they're paying for a haircut that includes a style in leaving unstyled because they know the stylist can't do it. Right. Or they're too terrified, they're they're terrified to give the stylist a chance to even style it because every stylist they've had in the past has not been able to style it. Right. Or they sit there and rip their hair out with a brush or a comb. That's I hear that I hear that a lot. A salon might recommend to spray your client down with a spray bottle before you start their haircut, and they will sit there and detangle someone with a cutting comb and not like a paddle brush or a a detangling brush.
SPEAKER_00So I feel like a lot of my clients are breathing a breath of fresh air because they know that you're gonna be able to service their curls the way that they need to be serviced.
SPEAKER_01Yes, and it's just with the um I think a lot of my clients they just go on my uh Instagram and just look at a picture. Oh, and they're like, this is they're like, it doesn't even it doesn't matter perse even my personality. They're like, even if I don't know this person, but I know that I can at least leave styled. Yeah. Like I'm not gonna leave looking crazy. Yeah. So um I think that is like a huge thing where it's like, even if my clients don't know anything about me or don't know if I'm gonna be able to give them a good haircut, they just know that they're at least gonna be able to walk out of the salon and not feel like they look crazy because I at least know how to style their hair. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Of course I know how to cut their hair as well. But but they but these clients who are seeking out curly hair sp are not even specialists, anybody who can just do curly hair in general, they can see your portfolio online and say, Oh, I he knows he knows what he's doing, he knows how to handle my hair.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's it's um I think they get a like a sigh of relief. Absolutely. Where they they some of them don't even care about the haircut, they they will let me tell them what they should do to their hair.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, they're just well. I mean, I feel like in general, like in the beauty industry, there is a component of clients want to be led. They want to be told, hey, this is gonna be something that's gonna work well with my curl pattern, or hey, this is something that's going to work well with my curls. And I think it kind of goes into play where it's like, you know, the client who has curly hair also wants to be able to walk into the salon and learn something about their hair that they may not know because they're not a hairstylist.
SPEAKER_01Right, right. Yeah, I feel like that's like well a lot of the times I experience it as much as I did when I first started doing curly hair because I feel like one I've grown with like my curly hair education as with the world during curly hair education. Um I feel like the curly hair education honestly started when like social media started. Oh, like Instagram. Yeah. Like 2012, 2013. You have like the OG curly hair specialist starting to come on the scene. Of course, you have history, like you have generations of people working with curly hair, but I feel like the modern curly hairstylist who is who's posting on social media now, it's their my clients are starting to learn on social media what I'm teaching them. Yes, there's it's it's not as new knowledge anymore. So I feel like in even in 2016 when I first started, um, or 2018 when I first started working just with curly hair, um, I had a lot of people who I'm the first person in their life to walk them through certain things or explain to them how I would recommend styling their hair, and they've never even had someone talk to them about a product.
SPEAKER_00Well, I can even say too, you know, the other day I was telling you I had a client come in and she's a new time first-time client, um, and she was a referral from one of my other curly hair clients, and uh she had never really had a curly cut before, she had never really had a thorough salon experience, and she had asked my client, you know, where she got her hair done because she loved her curls. And so she comes in, and you know, I'm chit-chatting with her a little bit, and I think right from the jump I could tell that she was already learning about her hair because no one had ever taken no, and she'd been getting her hair colored and styled for years and years and years and years prior to seeing me, and not a single stylist had ever taken the time to explain to her, oh, your curl type is actually curl and not wave. You actually are curly. And I think a lot of times in general, you know, clients wear their hair every day so they know their hair, but clients come to the hair salon to have someone take care of their hair in a way that is better than what they could. Right, right, right, and a lot of curly people don't necessarily have that opportunity. Because the stylists don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, they're coming in and they're they're coming in with their hair looking better than how they can leave left after the stylist did their hair. Yeah. And so I think that one, I think social media has been a huge help on teaching clients how to one, just be better at doing their hair at home. Yes. But if that's helping been helping the clients, I would hope that that could help the stylist absolutely as well. And I do see more, even just working here, I wasn't expecting as many of your staff members to be um comfortable and confident with curly hair. I'm so used to seeing salons where like their staff is like has no not even a foundation or an idea of curly hair. And since I walked into the door, everyone's been like all about wanting to see what I'm doing, wanting to know what I'm doing, wanting to uh set time aside for them to even just come like shadow me essentially just to get any additional education. Um and I think that's really cool. Uh one of your stylists brought up the um curly girl handbook.
SPEAKER_00Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01And that is like old school curly hair foundations. And we're talking about how like curly hairs come such a long way that people are even starting to break down the foundations of that book and kind of like build a new foundation of what like we can build curly hair education off of. There's still so many great tools in that book, but I also feel like people are starting to there's better science out there, we're starting to understand chemicals better. Um something like the entire Daviness line is sulfate free. So then it's like, are shampoos as bad as they were in 2000, in the early 2000s, when this book, I believe the book came out in the early 2000s. Um, is it okay to use a shampoo on curly hair now? So um it's just very interesting.
SPEAKER_00There's a lot more education out there now. So, do you have any advice for the beauty industry as a whole, any stylist, any salon owner, any you know, anybody working in the industry? Do you have any advice for them when it comes to including curly hair uh services, curly hair education in their space? You gotta start from the very bottom.
SPEAKER_01You have to just be even comfortable asking your client to let you try to style their hair. And I'd say the keyword is trying because you have not done it before most of the time. Um, and every client's different, every client's texture is different. Their curl patterns, their texture and curl are two completely different things. Um, so what you might be able to use on one client who has wavy hair, you can't use on the next client who has ringlet curls, right? Because that wavy hair can support stuff that's different than the curly hair can't some curly hair. And then on the other side, some wavy hair is super fine and it can't support the products that ringleted hair can support. And so you have to remember to not like give up because we're starting at ground zero, and you have to find products that feel good that you feel comfortable working with. Uh it's kind of like taking it back to like cosmetology school where you did a six-hour class on how to cut a one a line in a haircut with no layers.
SPEAKER_00You have to sit there and take the time and do that with wavy hair, curly hair, coily hair, fine hair, medium hair, coarse hair. Yes, every variation of all those combinations.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you'll find there's been time I was just telling one of my um clients yesterday, like, I'm like, if I don't like this product, I'm gonna change it. Um I'm gonna start applying these products the way my brain's telling me based off of the coarseness, based off the texture, based off of the curl, I'm gonna use these two products in her routine. And I started using them and I was like, these are not doing what I want them to do right off the bat. So I literally scrapped it, rinsed it out, and restarted her styling routine again because I was just not feeling like these products were gonna style her hair correctly. And I've been doing this for seven years. Yeah. So if I'm doing that now, imagine where you're gonna be at the first time you try to style one of your clients with curly hair. It's it might end up being a little frizzy, but you you'd be surprised what that client might feel, the fact that you even are taking the time to try like too style their hair.
SPEAKER_00I agree. I mean, I feel like it's even like if I think back to like the first time I ever did any type of hair extension, you know, my first time doing any kind of hair extension was horrible. Now I'm able to charge really high-end luxury prices for hair extension installs, but you know, I started ground zero and I've worked my way up. So the same thing applies to working with curly or coily hair as well. Um, so let's talk a little bit about basically you're now a little bit more seasoned. Let's talk a little bit about like where you would like to see yourself in this industry working with curly hair the next five years.
SPEAKER_01I think I would ideally like to be in a position where I am focusing more on I would use the word like transformative services. Okay. I think Can you elaborate a little bit on what that means? What I would think is like we're not just doing a highlight, we're doing a highlight and an extension install. Okay. We're doing length and fullness and color. Okay. Um the way I think of it is like seeing a couple less clients in a day. Um, where I'm like I'm having like a six-hour long appointment where we're doing a major transformation. Yeah, like a bigger appointment. Um even if we're not doing extensions, even color. I I enjoy doing the I enjoy doing color services as well. So I think I want to kind of like shrink my services a little bit. I think that would be really cool. Shrink my service list, I should say. Um and try to focus on bigger services. I really enjoy those. Um, and just really focusing in on trying to really master multiple forms of curly hair extensions because there's a lot of extension techniques out there. Um, but it is tricky trying to navigate the curly hair extension world as well.
SPEAKER_00I would agree, you know, as someone who has, you know, our own West Oak Salon extension line, it is definitely, you know, there are a lot of details, a lot of hoops to jump through. There are so many things about developing a high quality wavy to curly to coily hair extension that I just think it's hard to nail that still current day for some reason. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I I think like you think um we'll definitely get there.
SPEAKER_00I see the industry. Oh, yeah. We're gonna get there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you have to, yeah.
SPEAKER_00You can't not offer like that's like that, that's I think the direction we're heading is you have all these brands starting to dabble into the curly hair extension world, but uh I yeah, I was gonna say I don't know if the industry what the industry's just not been able to really 100% perfect what that looks like yet. So the stylists and the salon leaders haven't been able to offer it quite as I guess well as what we should be able to yet.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and it's it's hard too, because I feel like going back into education, I don't even it if we're struggling to get curly hair. Right, we're like just barely scratching this. Imagine how hard it is for curly hair extension education. I agree. Um so that's that's a big thing that I'd like to of course it's never ending, I feel like, with the education, especially with being, I feel like beyond ground zero with the ex curly hair extensions, um just trying to build that up. So I'd like I would I'd love in five years to be a lot more confident with where the industry's at with that. And I agree, Mabel. I would like to see that too. I'd like to see that too.
SPEAKER_00I think that it it's just all about the uh inclusivity. We need to be able to have options for everybody, no matter what their hair color, texture, length, curl pattern is. Everybody wants to be able to experience all the services. And they deserve to be able to experience those services.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And it's there's always limitations all around. Oh, it's like I feel like we're starting to get to expand the curly hair extension gauge. Which makes me happy exciting. Yeah, it is exciting. Um I have a couple clients who are like what I want to do in the next five years, so it's exciting to just try to build more of those clients, fill more of those clients in on my schedule. Absolutely. Um as I keep expanding my extension education with curly hair. Yeah. Um, and just be able to keep offering new services to people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, you are definitely the guy to go to because I, you know, as somebody who's been in the industry myself, you know, I've learned a lot from you myself. And I obviously, you know, can't thank you enough for everything that you've taught me in the industry. And I know that the clients that I've worked on also are very thankful and appreciative of what you've been able to teach me. And also, you know, I just feel like it's great that you are able to be a good resource for a lot of the curly people out there who need a good high-quality stylist who's not gonna be one afraid to teach them about their curls, but also not be afraid to actually do their hair. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's um I feel like it does take time to get to that point with the confidence level and skill set, uh, lots of lots of education. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I will say, you know, definitely 100%, not only me, but the entire salon is so excited to have you here at West Oak Salon. What are you looking forward to most with being here?
SPEAKER_01I'm excited um for the career opportunity to coming back to being in a uh a chair at a salon where there's people working around me. Even though I don't do necessarily what your staff is doing in the exact same way, it's exciting because there's a lot of inspiration everywhere. Um working independently was super fun. I did like working by myself, but I do did miss the salon environment. The salon around me. And it's artistic, like the artistic inspiration, the education inspiration. Like there's just so much stuff happening around me where I'm like, I haven't seen this in years, or I'm not, or what could that foil placement look like on curly hair, or can this translate to what I'm doing, or what can I absorb from the people around me here to put into what I can do with curly hair, but also I hope I can offer the same opportunity for the other stylists around me, where if if I'm feeling that inspired, I hope I can inspire them as well.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And I love that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you so much for being on this final episode of the Rooted at West Oak podcast. I am so thankful that you're willing to sit down with me and give your insight on the curly industry, the curly beauty industry, and just share all of your knowledge about all the curls, coils, and waves.
SPEAKER_01Yes, of course. Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_00Okay, but bye.
SPEAKER_01Bye.